Double Bass NO MORE "BASS" AMPS!

Bergantino addresses this perfectly. I had this problem too: the usual bass amps are (mostly) NOT perfectly suited for double bass. You definitely need an active system that has a different philosophy and takes a different view on this matter, like Bergantino.

Believe me, I've tried the other brands (SWR, Eden, even AER).

My setup: (lefthanded handmade) double bass - Realist pickup - Fishman platinum proEQ preamp - Bergantino IP112. So sweet, unbelievable, bowing as well as pizz. The DSP-technology (EQ-ing is much better suited than any 'conventional' amp) delivers a perfectly flat response, the kind you need to really amplify a double bass. With 500 W, you can stand really close to the system (no feedback whatsoever) or somewhat distant to hear yourself play better.

So look no further!

Welcome back nodnarb. Very interesting idea.

I looked into some of the Meyer gear that Anthony Jackson uses for his 6-string contrabass. Cool article here for those that haven't seen it. If I remember, his "small" set up includes a UPA-1P. Without the subwoofer, it was like around 75 lbs. His other setup includes a CQ-1 at 130 lbs. And he uses two. Wild. But I liked the idea, in theory anyway.

I checked your profile. Are you using a Focus 2R w/ your Berg now, and running your mic into that?

Although many amps are voiced for bass, there are "bass" amps that are full range (i.e.EA iAMP 500/800 and Pro) but you're still playing through a cabinet designed for bass. Am I missing something here?

Mike

The preamps in these cheaper mixers sound pretty bad IMHO. Anthony is one of my favorite players. I heard him at the 55 Club in NYC with his whole Meyer rig in a small club without PA reinforcement. When playing in the context of the band, the bass tended to get lost. Again I get into the discussion that we are in the business of sound production, not reproduction. Certain speakers designed for bass may not be as HIFi, but function better as far as impact. I have used A custom built Manley preamp into a studio Parametric EQ into a very powerful and expensive power amp. Very hifi sound. While sounding like crap in comparison, a GK 800rb functioned better in the context of a band.
I think the route to go is a bass amp with a good mic input like the AI amps. That being said, I've been pl,aying trough the prototype of the EA Doubler for the past week. I think that the sound and impact rival the AI amps and the mic input sounds better. And the 550 watt output is more than enough for any DB application.

Mike,
Sound and impact? As a Focus user, I think the sound (transparency) is great, but I think it has about as much impact as a wet feather. I've also used Eden, SWR and GK and found them to be punchier, but sadly they all added some artificial coloration.

I haven't used it much with a mic.

A lot of interesting stuff here. I am very curious about much of it and we'll try to address it in the mag too. But...the IP112 is a bass amp/cab to me. Tremendous sound, but definitely a bass amp/cab. Tom might chime in as he's used IP's for PA use...

I couldn't agree more. ( with clink) As an EA endorser, I try not to dis the other companies. I could have endorsed other companies, but I really researched the companies and their gear and EA was the clear choice. (pardon the pun) I just mentioned AI because their mic inputs are ok. To me they were too legato and unusable for electric bass.The only lightweight ( switching amps ) that had any degree of punch and physical presence (for me) were Markbass and EA. I thought that the EA gear sounded more hifi and had much more sophisticated eq than Markbass. And the EA speakers are MUCH better than the Markbass. I can't wait for the EA Doubler to hit the market.
I'm not an objective observer as I endorse EA and had a hand in helping with the design of the Doubler. Maybe it's the higher power, but the Doubler has more impact than the micro, and without sacrificing warmth and bloom. The Doubler also has a variable ( 0 to 180 degrees ) phase control. This is a much more sophisticated means of dealing with phase interactions when combining a pickup and a mic. ( or two pickups)
I think that well designed bass gear functions better than PA or HiFi gear. Now with bass gear companies that get it as far as function and try to improve the fidelity and sophistication of their gear as bassists we are getting better choices.
I remember when I put together my Manley, Symetrix and Chevin setup that carrying around a 5 rack space setup lasted about 5 gigs. Did the setup that retailed for about $5k and weighed about 30# in it's rack sound better? Yeah, probably. Did I notice the difference in the mix with a band? Probably not.

The IP112 has 'unreal' low end and punch. It's also a bear to locate in the crappy sounding clubs I play in as it might be more sensitive to hollow stages. That being said, I did get it sounding fabulous in a studio - simply fantastic...but BG of course. Not a flat PA sound though, which is fine as that's not what I want in most band settings either. EA? Great s*&t, and very flat for the most part. Top of list gear. We are trying to arrange a shoot out with Meyer and at least Markbass's new 'PA' range which is very similar to the Meyers. And we'd add in top of line bass rigs to this mix, particularly powered cabinets like the IP. We also plan to compare it to 'the best hi-fi' bass rigs out there as well. We have had several preliminary meetings with Meyer to get this to happen...I'll bug them again!

nodnarb said:

I've had it with bass amps and am
Im curious as to what the DB Talk Bass community has to say about this bare bones setup. Mackie VLZ3 802 -- Bergantino IP112

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I'd sure try it out before I bought it, but is seems reasonable to me. One question I would want answered would be if the line inputs have 1 meg ohm load. I don't know if thats typically the case with a mic mixer. Whatever peizo you are using isn't going to sound quite as good
at a lower input impedance

nodnarb said:

I own a Berg HT112 and could simply buy a power amp to run the cab but that would end up in more weight to schlepp. I've heard so many good things about the Berg IP does anyone DB users have complaints about it? (i've read the "who does not like their Bergantino IP" thread)

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No question it's a great cabinet. It has a Digital Signal Processor with a "Custom EQ Curve" that applies compression and limiting". If it's not to your liking can it be reconfigured?

nodnarb said:

The Mackie has so many possibilities with channel inserts or using mic/pickup preamps in the signal chain before the Mackie I'd like to hear some thoughts and opinions on what others might do. (yes i'd also like a Milennia preamp but if I buy a Berg IP I certainly will have NO money left so lets make this somewhat affordable)

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Well, my other concern is that the rig is pretty heavy. The Bergantino ways 50 lbs plus 5.5 for the Mackie. Not to bad actually but there are lighter solutions.

nodnarb said:

I'm anxious to hear everyones comments and criticisms, thanks.
B-

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I would say do what works. Based on my experience as a "professional" player (200+ gigs a year) I will go on record and say that I think EA is highly unpractical for the average working guy. I would go simple, light, and durable. What amp you get is far less important than technique. An amp with a useable sound and good technique should be enough for most gigs. I had very good luck with a Mackie powered speaker and a Raven Labs blender.

joel kelsey said:

I would say do what works. Based on my experience as a "professional" player (200+ gigs a year) I will go on record and say that I think EA is highly unpractical for the average working guy. I would go simple, light, and durable. What amp you get is far less important than technique. An amp with a useable sound and good technique should be enough for most gigs. I had very good luck with a Mackie powered speaker and a Raven Labs blender.

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Can you elaborate more on this?

I tried that route.

Berg HT112 with EV power amp (the 7300) and various preamps.

Long story short, using a non-switching power supply is audibly "bigger", "deeper" and just has that low end ooomph that, to my ears, switching power supply amps don't. By a long shot.

However, I couldn't find a decent pre-amp to work well with the set up. I tried the Fishman pro-platinum and the LR Baggs Para Acoustic DI. The fishman didn't have enough gain, but I kinda liked the LR Baggs. It's just that it's designed for acoustic guitar and it took too much knob-twiddling to get a good sound.

In addition, the power amp weighed about 50lbs, and after a few weeks I got tired of lugging it around.

The AI Focus is good enough for me, especially with a beefy cab like the VL208. It's loud,reliable, has all the eq and filtering options I need and I can carry everything, including my bass, in one trip.

I should say, with various tube preamps the set up killed with electric bass. just plain killed. Dark, warm, with that powerful low end supported by the EV power amp.

Mike Arnopol said:

I couldn't agree more. ( with clink) As an EA endorser, I try not to dis the other companies. I could have endorsed other companies, but I really researched the companies and their gear and EA was the clear choice. (pardon the pun) I just mentioned AI because their mic inputs are ok. To me they were too legato and unusable for electric bass.The only lightweight ( switching amps ) that had any degree of punch and physical presence (for me) were Markbass and EA. I thought that the EA gear sounded more hifi and had much more sophisticated eq than Markbass. And the EA speakers are MUCH better than the Markbass. I can't wait for the EA Doubler to hit the market.
I'm not an objective observer as I endorse EA and had a hand in helping with the design of the Doubler. Maybe it's the higher power, but the Doubler has more impact than the micro, and without sacrificing warmth and bloom. The Doubler also has a variable ( 0 to 180 degrees ) phase control. This is a much more sophisticated means of dealing with phase interactions when combining a pickup and a mic. ( or two pickups)
I think that well designed bass gear functions better than PA or HiFi gear. Now with bass gear companies that get it as far as function and try to improve the fidelity and sophistication of their gear as bassists we are getting better choices.
I remember when I put together my Manley, Symetrix and Chevin setup that carrying around a 5 rack space setup lasted about 5 gigs. Did the setup that retailed for about $5k and weighed about 30# in it's rack sound better? Yeah, probably. Did I notice the difference in the mix with a band? Probably not.

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Just thought I would add that Markbass has a sister company for PA gear called Markaudio, and that Michael Manring has been using two AS 602 (2x6" and horn) powered cabs. For his particular sound, he seems prefer the Markaudio cabs to our bass amps and cabinets, although he uses them as well.

nodnarb said:

You are right Joel, the sound has to first come from your hands. The biggest trick with DB is to get that sound out. I'd love to go the Dennis Irwin route but I don't want to have to work that hard.
B-

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maaaaaaaaaaaaan. Dennis Dennis Dennis.

Dennis Irwin was a monster. I listened and watched has he sweat through his shirt every Monday night at the Vanguard.

wow. Dennis Irwin. My ears miss him.

Uncletoad said:

Can you elaborate more on this?

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Sure! Let me say that EA sounds great, but I have had bad luck, or I'm cursed or something. I have owned two of there speakers, and two of there heads. I liked the speakers aside from their weight. I had problems with both of the heads. I had the 350 watt head that I bought in 03 or 04. It worked fine for a few months and then it just crapped out for no reason. I sent it in, they disabled the effects loop and it worked for another 6 months maybe a year, and boom crapped out again. I really liked the way it sounded, so I bought an Iamp 800 in 2006. I figured maybe they had changed the design or something and maybe the newer model would be more durable. I had it for maybe a year and I BABIED it. Well it crapped out, on a gig. I tried it with different speakers, cables, different rooms, ect. Same "EA distortion" that I experienced with the 350. So I was very frustrated. I sent it in to EA, and decided that I could not deal with there gear anymore. They said nothing was wrong with it and sent it back. So, I put it up for sale after diclosing the trip to the repair shop. Bottom line, I was only able to get a little more than half of what I payed for it, with a full year left on the warranty. They do have good costumer service, which is important. However, I feel like there amps are more suited for rich guys basements and really nice concert halls, not the sh*t holes I play in. I think they are overvalued, and overrated. I haved used lots of lesser sounding amps, not babied them, and they have been far more durable. Don't get me wrong, I love the sound of EA. It is just not practical for my crappy gigs. They have brilliant marketing, which convinces us that paying 1500-2000 for a rig will solve all of our problems..... Take my story for what it is worth. I am just a hack in the midwest. However, I would add that I am very happy with my Markbass rig. Sounds pretty good, it's light, and I don't have to worry that much (except that it has to warm up when it is cold).

joel kelsey said:

I would say do what works. Based on my experience as a "professional" player (200+ gigs a year) I will go on record and say that I think EA is highly unpractical for the average working guy. I would go simple, light, and durable. What amp you get is far less important than technique. An amp with a useable sound and good technique should be enough for most gigs. I had very good luck with a Mackie powered speaker and a Raven Labs blender.

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Joel,
I've played through a lot of different cabinets and the old EA VL series, especially the VL 108 and VL 208 are the easiest speakers to EQ that I've ever owned. From a practical standpoint the VL 108 is very small and easy to transport. When you match them with a decent head they sound great. Raven Labs went out of business several years ago and although they do come up for sale now and then but they aren't all that easy to get.

Ric

I'm an EA fan, and IME/IMHO, their amps and cabs work very well for double bass. I can say the same for Phil Jones Bass and Glockenklang, as well. With Bergantino, he makes several lines, all with different targeted markets. Not all of Jim's cabs work well for me on upright. But the IP112 most definitely does, again, IMHO/IME. It is much better for double bass than is the HT112, even with a great head. For the record, the HT112 with something like a WWU is a much closer match to the IP112 where electric bass is involved.

I have not tried Meyer or Markaudio powered PA cabs for upright, but my guess is that they would fare well.

To cut to the OP's point, though, the IP112 with your front end of choice is a drop-dead awesome rig. You might want to look into the new Forest Audio line from Radial, as far as a front end or preamp goes. Their stuff looked especially good for double bass.

Tom.